I am in the process of writing a book that the Spirit has prompted me to write. It's a book about removing strongholds of darkness from your life, and repelling efforts of the adversary. Truly, I believe it is going to be very helpful.
While writing this book, I have studied and pulled from many experiences throughout the entire Christian world (across all denominations and faiths) and thought it would be very enlightening to gain perspectives especially from members of various Christian faiths who have since converted to Mormonism (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints).
The following interview is an incredibly genuine and raw perspective from a Mormon convert who used to belong to several Christian denominations/faiths. I have found that spiritual warfare is a big portion of teaching in many Christian faiths, and is on the rise. Many churches are teaching their members to cast out evil in all appearances and to not tolerate darkness in any form. They are teaching how to protect families and how to strengthen gifts of the spirit as to be more effective in spiritual warfare.
Many of the miracles I have studied are verified and genuine. There is great faith in the body of Christ as a whole, and many are being healed and brought to the knowledge of their Savior Jesus Christ and learning how to use the Atonement in their every day lives.
I was so grateful and fortunate to have received such a detailed response to my interview questions. This interviewee (who I will keep anonymous) shares such a beautiful perspective in comparison of the churches he came from, and the church he is now a happy member of today (the LDS church).
I have been a member of the LDS church my entire life, and therefore I enjoy hearing what it's like for someone outside of the Church to experience it for the first time. Though we have many similarities with various Christian churches and theology, there are some stark differences; and shedding light on them in this interview was very refreshing.
As a life-long member of this church there are many things that even I take for granted. This interviewee brought up some beautiful and fascinating points that I think you'll enjoy - as well as his spirited sense of humor!
1) Before joining the
LDS church, what church did you belong to? What beliefs, practices, and
theology differed most from the LDS church?
We moved around a lot.
We started off Baptist, when I was born, then moved to Pentecostal, then
charismatic, then everyone became “non-denominational”, then I was with the
free Methodists for a while, then moved to Florida and started going to a
Baptist church again, then a Baptist church plant, which was kinda more
non-denominational in truth, then I stopped going, then LDS.
Baptists are probably
the most similar in style, very subdued, most use hymns for their music,
Really, aside from their belief that cannon is closed and prophecy is no more,
Baptist and Mormons could almost be siblings.
Pentecostals/Charismatics
would probably be the most different. While they believe still in the gifts of
the spirit (tongues, prophecy, etc.) they surely don’t do ANY of it with any
kind of order. They would sing a song (sometimes a hymn, sometimes a regular
“worship” song, like those you can hear on Christian radio stations) and then
speak in tongues (unknown tongues) for a matter of minutes or more. They would
raise their hands in praise while singing, they clap for special music and
depending on what type of church, sometimes you had people get up and do
anything from yell “Amen” while the preacher was preaching, to straight up
wildly dancing and yelling in the isles. Quite honestly, I am pretty sure some
of the more insane stuff was actually demonic… but I honestly kinda blame the
“tamer” things done without understanding, for providing the gateway. Example:
Even when Paul was talking about speaking in tongues, and even where he says
that it’s not all known languages, he says “but if anyone DOES do this in your
meetings, only 2 or 3 at the most, and ONLY with an interpreter, lest someone
from the outside come in, see this, and think your nuts.” Basically. No one
listens to such things in most Pentecostal/charismatic churches… they just go
all out.
Also, you will have
prayer times where people would come to the front, and get hands laid on them
for healing, and blessings and stuff. I have seen, and been party to some miraculous
healings of this kind, while not being in the church, but I have seen a
LOOOOOOT more showmanship than authenticity here. After I left those kinds of
circles, or right about that time, there were things going on like “being slain
in the spirit” where the preacher touches you and “the power of God” comes and
basically short circuits your system to the point where you fall over and just
lay there for a while. I’ve had it done a few times… I can attribute it to 1 of
2 things generally. 1: either the one who falls, falls on purpose… indeed when
being “taught” how to do it… (Really? Taught? Jeez…) they tell you just let
everything go, and fall back when you feel it. Or something like that… well of
course you’re going to fall after a minute or two of the preacher pushing you
backwards even slightly. So… 1: it’s all just… a show. 2: it is possible (especially with these
kinds of crowds) to get so emotionally worked up, and of course so open to
influence, that the amount of energy flowing (just from the atmosphere, and the
people) might be enough to short circuit their own energy system making it seem
they’ve been touched or need to fall or what not… We did something akin to this
in the martial arts I practiced for a while. Very energy based… nothing to do with
God.
2)Before you
converted to the LDS church, how active of a church goer were you? Describe how
your relationship with God was and your dedication to the Lord.
Over my life I have
had on again off again periods. There would be times when I would go to church
every Sunday, Saturday, Wednesday, any time the door was open, and sometimes in
between. Then there were other times when I would miss church for months, or
only show up once a month or so. Right before I joined the LDS church was one
of those off times, I probably hadn’t been to church for real, (i.e. with any
kind of regularity) for a year or more. At that time in my life I was kinda mad
at God, and although I would still view myself as his servant, Kinda always do…
he was surely not my best friend at that moment, but that was DEFINITELY my own
doing… I was being really rather stupid at that point in my life on a few
issues.
3) Were there
difficulties or struggles when learning about the church? If so, please
explain.
I was married at the
time, my (now ex) wife was not that into it. She didn’t see the need for
anything but the Bible. This of course caused some tension, and when I decided
to join the church, that was kinda the last (surely not the biggest) straw that
made her leave. But mostly, when learning about the church, everything was
easy… it was the years that followed my conversion that things were difficult.
But I will explain that all in my conversion story.
4) How did you
overcome those struggles?
Like I said before,
even when God was not my best friend, I still considered myself a servant, and
a follower of him… I simply believed that this was absolutely where God wanted
me at the moment, and I went. I didn’t, and haven’t let outside discouragement
avert me. (granted, I do now, have some issues of my own… but still, not enough
to actually avert me from the faith.) Long story short, I believe this is where God wants me, so this is where I am.
5) Did you witness
miracles, healings, and wonders in your church? If so, how often and can you
share details?
Yes, it’s kinda hard
to say how often, because as I am sure you picked up by now, I am somewhat a
skeptic, and I really try to shy away from calling things miracles when there
are other possible explanations. I believe giving the mundane miraculous status
really detracts from the AWESOMENESS that God really is.
THAT said… I have seen
things I would indeed count as miraculous. (Though, admittedly, we can’t
honestly rule out placebo effect, but for sake of argument, and what I myself
consider legit… I have seen things.)
Please know, before I
talk of these things, that I REALLY don’t talk of them much… so much in those
cultures are showy and flashy and “look at me, look at me” that I REALLY REALLY
try my best to “not let my right hand know what the other hand is doing” so to
speak… I don’t brag about these things to the point where I really rarely talk
of them at all. It’s all very sacred to me, is the best way to put it… I just
don’t want to throw it out there for everyone, because I believe that when we
stop holding the sacred as sacred, it does a dis-service to God. These things I
call miracles are truly God working (in my view) and not just me doing things…
so to use them as a show piece REALLY goes against who I am, (though is common
practice in Pentecostal circles) so… I shy away… Does this make sense? I just
want to outline the way I feel about the things I am about to talk about… Just
know I don’t take these moments lightly, and I am not trying to show off or be
boastful.
Ok, so… one night, me
and a bible study I was currently with went to a weekend music festival… think
Christian Woodstock. Well, I had been reading a book called “Victory over the
Darkness” by Neil T. Anderson. Was about how to break demonic strongholds and
things, WHICH I DO BELIEVE God gives us the power to do. I just hate when
people make a circus showpiece out of it… I don’t think that’s right. ANYWAY….
I was talking to one of my friends about the book, and what I was learning, and
one of my other friends, who was very quiet spoke up from across the campsite
and said “so you think you know a lot about this demon stuff huh?” and without
even looking, I knew something had changed… His voice was the same… but… there
was something else in it. When I looked, of course his face was physically the
same… but again… there was something else there.
LONG story short… I
ended up… after a long night, casting the spirits out of him. That I would
consider miraculous.
Another time, I had a
friend who’s knee was getting worse and worse over the course of a few weeks,
till one night, he showed up for church on crutches, and said that as of that
morning, he could not walk without them. This man was a friend of mine, and
also one who was not just a showy person, so I have every reason to believe
him.
After church we went
outside, me and a couple other friends circled him, and we prayed for him, that
God would heal his knee. When we were done praying, I told him to do something
he couldn’t do before, and he handed me his crutches and walked without them.
Never needed them again. I consider that miraculous.
6) Would you describe
your religious upbringing as conservative?
Yes, quite. Even in my
family’s Pentecostal phase (one most have grown out of… kinda… my dad is now
(he wasn’t then) really big into it…) we were all really conservative. As far
as the word goes…
7) Did you
participate in speaking in tongues, prophecy, and additional spiritual gifts?
Please explain.
This goes again, with
what I was saying before… I don’t just
speak of these things lightly… most today don’t even know… but… yes, I can
speak in tongues. A few people have told me to “prove it” and I won’t, because
the Bible is clear… speaking with unknown tongues is the spirit praying, and
not to be “shown off” so Regardless of their lack of belief, I don’t just
demonstrate this thing, but yes, I can.
Allow me a moment to
explain why I believe I can. I am NOTORIOUSLY bad at improvisation. To the
point where if I wanted to just make up something on the fly… a language, a
melody, anything I literally feel like I hit a wall, and just can’t do it. I’ve
been this way for most of my life. VERY VERY VERY Few times in my life… it
seems I have, through God, or some other means I don’t know always, been able
to reach beyond that wall and receive something. Truly, reaching beyond the
wall is wrong, it’s almost like something from the other side reached through
and gave me something… that’s better.
One such time is, on
the third or fourth attempt at people praying for me to receive the gift of
tongues, I felt a swell of energy, and it started coming out. It’s funny, I
don’t even really think about this much myself… I rarely if ever use it
anymore… and hearing about people speaking in tongues REALLY puts a bad taste
in my mouth because of how extremely over-and incorrectly-used it is… but, I
cannot deny this in my own life, and though I rarely use it… when I do… I do feel
a kind of power in my spirit. For all I can say, and all I know about it
specifically from Scripture, this ability/gift/technique/whatever lines up with
what should be according to Paul.
Prophecy is a
difficult one. There are so many ways to interpret that. I DO have a STRONG
(again I do not say this to brag, or boast) ability to discern things, to the
point where I can sometimes tell what is going to happen in the future if paths
are not diverted from.
I believe though, the
gift of prophecy is more than just a future teller, it is that of someone who
hears from God, and warns the people. Or cries out the word of God to the
people… Honestly, there are a lot of different ways you could take the word
“prophecy” or “prophet” but… I have, at various times in my life moved in these
areas, most if not all of them. I have had people call me a prophet, which is a
big deal, because I FIRMLY believe, that just calling yourself something
doesn’t make any difference, but if someone else recognizes you as something,
it pulls a lot more weight. There is a line from a book series that I love, but
cannot recommend, where one of the characters says “Any man who must say “I am
the king” is no true king.” I love that line, and live by it most of the time…
so… I hope that helps with the prophecy thing.
Additional spiritual
gifts: Like I said, I have, usually, really good discernment. Well I should say
always… I just don’t always listen to it well… if you consider healing a gift,
I have done that a few times. Going by the list in Romans, I would say (humbly)
serving (when possible) leadership, exhortation, mercy. Going by Corinthians,
healings, miracles, discernment, tongues. Again, most of these I haven’t
thought of in AGES… I really try not to flaunt them… but, when I NEED them…
(and we could write a whole paper on the word NEED as opposed to WANT) they
have always been there. Except for the tongues… that came on kinda suddenly.
Also… from an LDS perspective on the gift of tongues, I have ALWAYS been very
good with worldly languages. It’s kinda a hobby of mine, but… always, since I
was a child, very good and very quick picking them up and speaking… so… for
whatever that’s worth.
8) If you made a
comparison between members of your previous church and members of the LDS
church what would you say the biggest differences are in culture, spiritual
gifts, faith, miracles etc. Are there any at all? Please explain.
The BIGGEST difference
(and there are many smaller ones) would be what brought me to this church in
the first place, and that would be “the fruit”. I don’t know how I missed it
all those years, perhaps I didn’t, and I just didn’t know of an alternative,
because LDS is a “cult”, and I don’t do cults (ugh… such stupidity…) but the
Fruit is the biggest thing. Every church I went to was cool when you’re a new
member, but, after a while, the façade always wore away, and the body was just…
cancerous. In fact, one of the best sermons I ever preached was “Leafy
Vegetables Cause Cancer”. Based off the
story where Jesus curses the fig tree, it was about how people who talk the
talk, but never walk the walk, who just come to church on Sunday to tick off
their checklist and go home and live however they want, cause “cancer” in the
bride of Christ (the church). The more churches I went to, eventually, the more
cancer I found. It was horrible, because the TRUE church, was
supposed to be without spot or wrinkle…a glorious bride. I believed it existed
(almost gave up hope…) but everywhere I went, this is all I could see. Then I
came to the LDS church… I found the fruit of the spirit… Love, Joy, Peace,
etc (this is huge for me… again… see my conversion story, this was a BIG part
of it…). Now sure… there are indeed rough patches in our history, heck, there
are some rough patches in our now… I have heard HORROR stories of bishops and
stake presidents using their positions… shall we say… unrightfully… so… even
here I sadly see some cancer cells… but… buying large, it seems to be a lower
percent in this church than in others… and the love and the fruits of the
spirit, when visible, are far less rotten inside.
That would be the
biggest difference I would say. (NOTE: This is not to say that EVERYONE in
every other church had rotten fruit… there are good people all over the place…
but… so far I’ve found the highest concentration of good fruit here in the LDS
church, compared to other Christians churches.)
9) If worshiping in
tongues, prophesying and healings were a common practice at church and in
Sunday services, did you find it difficult to leave that behind when converting
to the LDS church?
Nope… they all do it
wrong… to be honest I left that crowd long before I joined the LDS church…
seeing the gross misapplication of such things was nauseating for me. And of
course, the spirit behind it was nauseating as well, since when I would bring
up the unbiblical nature of such things, I was told pretty much excuses and
anything to be able to do whatever they want, regardless of what scripture
says… so… I knew that wasn’t for me.
This is a good question to kinda wrap up my whole thoughts on the
matter… Do I believe these gifts exist? Yes. Do I have such gifts? Yes. but I
surely don’t miss the culture… the culture behind it all is more devastatingly
wrong than Mormon culture (as opposed to Mormon doctrine…) Talmud and Torah…
I’ll stick with Torah. You know?
10) Did you notice a
difference in reverence or level of Spirit that you felt during LDS church
services compared to your previous church?
Reverence is a bit of
a hard word to pin down… after serving in primary, we kinda equate reverence to
“quiet” but… I digress. No… I would have to say, if anything, other churches
seem to have more reverence (or, that I noticed) on things like sacrament, and
church time and stuff… I look around now, at church, sometimes, EVEN DURING
SACRAMENT… and see people playing on their cell phones, there’s always baby’s
crying or laughing, or gaming, or whatever… you don’t get that kind of thing in
a Baptist church… I would say Baptists might be more reverent than LDS…
THAT Said… again,
going back to my conversion story, one of the biggest differences I FELT… was
peace. The first time I checked out the LDS church with a couple of
my friends, I will never forget leaving the building and feeling peace. This
was the first time I had left a church… ANY church… in the past, oh… 2-3 years(?)
that I felt peace, and not depression. THAT was a big deal to me.
Perhaps my first
paragraph wasn’t fair… I know a LOT of LDS people who REALLY are reverent
during the meetings… but… just like everything… the negative is kinda, always
more noticeable?
11) Some say that
conservative religions such as the LDS church are “boring” and seek churches
where there is loud worship and praise, dancing and live bands performing. What
are your thoughts about this?
SUCH a great question.
And this ties into my thoughts a lot about church’s in general, actually
spawned from a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIRECTION… so… it’s fun to see how this
question fits too (personally fun… maybe not for you LOL.)
I believe that the
purpose of a church, ANY church, is to clearly and loudly proclaim the dictates
of their deity. They should not shy away from the hard parts, but be bold in
their proclamation. A Church is to be a lighthouse,
shining brightly the light of what they believe is truth. THAT’S ALL.
It’s not something for people to get mad at. It’s not for people to go blow up
if they disagree… the church is there to proclaim truth, and give space for
likeminded people to meet and share and grow into better more holy people.
(assuming we are talking about today’s idea of church, not the “ecclesia”
specifically…)
IT IS THEN THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE
PEOPLE THEMSELVES… to come to God, pray, and seek the confirmation of the
spirit, as to which church is true, or, which church God wants them in. FROM
THERE… it is really the PERSON who should be moldable… NOT THE CHURCH. The
church needs to be stationary and solid… it is the PERSON who is to be molded
and grown. We see in our church all these protesters… who think the
church should change… WHAT GOOD IS A CHURCH THAT CHANGES DUE TO POPULAR
DEMAND?! You might as well just sit at home and call it church, then it will
never need to change cause it’s already “perfect” in the eyes of the self…
(seemingly the only one that counts to such people). No, the church is supposed
to be solid… WE are the ones who are to change… THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT of
church… anything else would be ridiculous…so to answer your question
specifically… my thoughts are those people should just find some local rock
concerts or music shows, or stay home and watch MTV… they are not going to be
changed, they are going for a good time and a show… which is not what Church is
supposed to be. My thoughts are, they
are missing the entire point.
12) For Christians
who attend churches in which they have regular, supernatural encounters with
the Holy Spirit, experience and witness miracles and healings, signs, and
wonders, such as guests of the Sid Roth Show and those who attend revivals, in
your opinion, what would be something that might peak their interest in the LDS
church, as our meetings, leaders, and members, are much more conservative?
Well, this kinda gets
into everything I said for the last question, so I think the answer is very
similar… the only thing I would say more here is, The Bible… Jesus himself…
warns against those who are always just looking for a sign. He warns against
“tickling ears” that just want a good show to give a scratch. So, I would say,
coupling the ideas I’ve presented about how wrongly practiced these things are
according to scripture, and the purpose for the church in general, I would say
that I personally hold very little hope that people attracted to such church
shows would ever be attracted to us.
HOWEVER,… if there is someone in those crowds who is genuinely
seeking the truth, who is looking for what the scripture says points out the
followers of God, rather just the signs and wonders that can easily be
duplicated… then I would say that the members, for the most part, are where the
people would want to look to find interest in our church. The fruit of the
spirit is abundant there… and indeed… if in a far more quite way,
miracles DO happen in our church. I had a very hurt ankle a few weeks ago… I had
my home teachers give me a blessing, by the next morning it was fine. So, all
those things CAN be found in our church… of course, because those things are
TRUE… we simply do not just go and make a show of them… which is far more
biblical in my opinion (as you know LOL)
13) Are their aspects
of faith, spiritual gifts, or culture that you feel are lacking among members
of the LDS church, or the church you previously attended?
Not as such… in fact,
if anything I would almost say the LDS church has a bit too much faith. I
believe firmly a modicum of skepticism is good for a person, it keeps one
engaged, it keeps one always making sure they are on the right road. I have
heard so many people who talk against “blindly following” even the prophet… who
do just that. DO NOT GET ME WRONG… I love our Prophet, I am thankful for him,
but I don’t see him (as most do) as infallible. Here’s my thinking.
We have a prophet, who
guides us the best he can, but he’s still human, WHICH IS WHY… we need the holy
spirit to testify to the truth. Now sure… the spirit will testify to the
leader’s words 99% of the time or so… but what happens when He doesn’t? At those
times, very sincere people like me tend to get looked at oddly, or given cliché
“well just follow the prophet and you can’t go wrong…”
BUT if we were just
supposed to blindly follow “in faith” or whatever, what in the world is the
point of the Holy spirit? If the prophet is always right… WE WOULDN’T NEED the
spirit AT ALL for guidance… so… I think this is one thing… I guess you could
put it under “spiritual gifts/Discernment” that is lacking in the LDS faith…
It’s not always a BAD thing per se… but… it does kinda get annoying to someone
like me… when the spirit and the prophet says 2 different things… (or when the
spirit goes against some “well understood” piece of doctrine… not always…
indeed rarely what the prophet actually SAYS… does this make sense?)
14) Aside from
priesthood keys and authority (which sets apart the LDS church from all other
churches) how do you view men, women, and children of other Christian churches
who obviously do not have the priesthood but have the gift of healing, faith,
prophesying, tongues, and miracles? How do you feel that LDS members generally
view this practice in other churches?
Well, how I feel about
it is simple… the Bible says God’s gifts are without repentance. i.e. He gives
gifts to all his children… and then won’t just take em’ back. The Bible says
God so loved the WORLD… in Matthew 5 it talks about loving EVERYONE and how
THAT is being perfect… not just loving our friends, but our enemies… To this
end… much like the priesthood, our spiritual gifts are for ministering to
OTHERS (save for unknown tongues, which is very clearly laid out for
self-edification).
THE BIGGEST key to ANY
of these gifts… is Faith. FAITH of the person ministering, and indeed
faith of the person being ministered to is what activates and brings about many
of these gifts… and FAITH is inherent in ALL humanity… so let’s even move outside of other
“churches” and ask the question… well… what if someone goes to a witch, or a
shaman, or something like that and received a miracle? IT DOES HAPPEN… It’s because
it is all about FAITH… not keys. Keys, I believe are
for authority WITHIN our church… FAITH is a universal constant. See the
difference?
As to how LDS people
see this… I don’t know… the only times it’s ever come up it’s kinda been a non-issue,
I’ve basically heard that the Holy Spirit helps all the sons and Daughters of
God… not just LDS… so… I think basically, over all, my thoughts are the
thoughts of most in the church… if they aren’t… I am not aware.
15) It is not common to see men, women, and
children in the LDS church healing, prophesying and declaring miracles over
fellow church members. What are your thoughts about this? It is typical
practice for members to call upon another member who holds the priesthood to
give them a blessing, or to rely on faith and fasting in more serious
circumstances. Prophesying is generally left to the leaders of the church. Do
you feel that the majority of LDS members are living below their spiritual
potential where faith, understanding, and spiritual gifts are concerned?
MAN these are awesome
questions. Honestly, I think this church acts, in these matters EXACTLY as it
should. We don’t glorify miracles, or the ones involved, we focus on
Christ, and we understand that supernatural power is there if needed,
but we don’t go and glorify the power. Does that make sense? Other churches
glorify the POWER, the signs, the wonders… This is nothing short of idolatry. I
have heard from many sources even that understand that EVERYONE, or at least
EVERY PRIESTHOOD holder (more often than not EVERYONE) is a prophet, that they
get direction and guidance from God to guide those they have authority over.
The key here is Authority. Aside from the previous questions and the
connotation of “prophet” in the LDS religion I AM a prophet… but only in my
household. The difference between ME and President Monson is our area of
Authority… THAT’S IT. (and he is most likely a much better man than I will EVER
be… but… that aside….)
The ONLY way I can
ABSOLUTELY see LDS members living under their spiritual potential is the “put
your shoulder to the wheel” “carry your own burdens” mentality. This has
brought us to a place where, EVEN WHEN WE SHOULD ABSOLUTELY be asking for
blessings, we don’t. “we don’t want to bother”. It was honestly one of the
things that shocked me SO much when I was investigating the church. An LDS
friend would be sick. I would ask “did you get a blessing”? “No… I don’t want
to bother anyone, I’ll be fine.”
O M G>>> WHAT
DO YOU THINK BLESSINGS ARE THERE FOR?! It’s like… THE ENTIRE POINT of the
priesthood being back on the church is to give blessings… but you don’t want to
bother… then tell me, what is the point of the priesthood being here?! It’s
insane to me.
Indeed I was talking
to one of my previous bishopric, about this exact topic, and he hung his head a
bit and said… you know… I’ve only known one case where we advised that a lady
stop asking for a blessing, because she
was literally asking for the same thing, every day, for a couple of weeks. We
had to tell her that, with faith, one or two was more than enough. And
certainly not EVERY DAY… but, (he said) we do not ask for nearly enough
blessings. And he agreed with me it was a sad thing.
Funny story? Now I see
myself doing the same things… Yes… we live FAR below our spiritual
potential, but it has NOTHING to do with HOW we practice… but everything to do
with HOW OFTEN.
16) As in other
churches, many members of the LDS church might be what some consider lukewarm
members – meaning that they go through motions every week, and they have
accepted all the saving ordinances and made temple covenants, but they have not
quite experienced the “mighty change of heart” or being “born again of the
spirit”. Their passion for Jesus and the gospel seems to be lacking. Is this
what other Christian churches deem as “being saved”. Might a member of a
born-again Christian church, view these types of members as not being saved?
What are your thoughts about that with the LDS church and other churches?
Oh geez… that’s such a
huge question… Honestly… VERY VERY Honestly?! I believe most people, regardless
of religious label, consider “being saved” as pretty much “agreeing with
everything they themselves think theologically”. I have seen SOOOOO much on
this topic, ESPECIALLY once I converted… how some of my best friends at the
time, who would come to my house and stay for 12 or more hours just talking
theology and whatever, who knew my heart, and knew me to be a “saved” person,
just turned around and called me a “traitor to God” and have not talked to me
since because I joined the church instead of even asking why I would do such a
thing.
I think these terms…
“saved” “born again” (born again… fun fact… or rebirth… is baptiso in Greek…
aka baptism… but we won’t tell right? LOL) “Mighty change of heart” is things
that people use to judge others, and feel better about themselves.
I know these are terms
in the Bible, but they were terms used by Christ… the most righteous judge. We
are so prone to judging in the moment. See, I used to be a VERY dark person
(NO, I never hurt anyone because of it… you can breathe LOL) but… I hated
people… there were nights when I hated people so much I couldn’t sleep until I
lulled myself to sleep by visions of torturing whoever I didn’t like at the
time.
All this hatred of
course, as it always does, came from being so hurt by people that I couldn’t
think straight anymore. The pain caused me by society was just too much… …until
a sister missionary shared some thoughts on the atonement, and the holy spirit
gave me about a month of a crash course in the atonement and what it means, and
now I have a heart that doesn’t hurt anymore… doesn’t want me to kill myself
daily, and instead of wanting to destroy humanity, might flip someone off on
occasion (and I’m still working on that bit)…
See, with a bunch of
perspective… I would say I HAVE had a MIGHTY change of heart… I am NOT who I
once was thank God… and indeed I am not yet who I should be. People use these
things, these ideals of perfection, to show how people are not yet what they
should be… and no one looks at who they once were, or what is going on in the
moment. To that end, and I don’t know if this is answering your question or not
really, but, I feel terms like this should be reserved for the one who first
said it. Our job is to love everyone,
and help everyone on their journey… not shiv them from behind when they are not
as far along the path that you (we) deem they should be for a title of
“righteous”.
Case in point, I am
probably considered inactive atm. I haven’t been to church in a couple months
or more… Why? I have sleep apnea… I find it VERY hard to get enough rest… and 9
am church is just NOT conducive to that. Saturday and Sunday are really my only
rest days… and then I have another week of VERY little sleep, and even smaller
rest. So yes, I haven’t been to church in a long time, but, you know, I miss
it? I genuinely miss it. (which is kinda odd) and if anyone needed anything I
would surely be there. I do my home teaching, and I help out where I can.
People might not see me in church and judge me, people might see me home
teaching and judge me differently…
I would offer, instead
of worrying about lukewarm, or change of heart, or these surface things… we
worry more about the why? “Man… this guy seems to know his stuff, he seems
REALLY genuinely moved when he talks of the spirit, but he never goes to
church, and seems to only half-heartedly follow the teachings most times… Why?”
“Jeez, my best friend
who I’ve talked theology with has joined what I consider to be a cult… why in
the world would he do that? I know he’s intelligent… and I know he loves God…
so what’s the deal?”
See… this moves us
from judgement to love. Do you see that? And when love is introduced, we can
talk, we can move, we can help… if all we do is judge based on some perfect
ideal of “saved vs. unsaved” we are going to screw it up so often we might as
well not even bother.
I guess re-reading
your question I am answering this backwards… those are my thoughts… As to
others viewing people like that… I think
it’s really hard to tell, I think there are as many definitions
of “being saved” as there are people trying to define it. I think that’s human
nature. I think we are called to go beyond human nature though into an eternal
nature… and as such, I think we are called to stop worrying about all these
terms, do our best before God, and help others do their best before God.
Does this make sense?
