This is so very interesting!
It will play on a desktop computer, but for some reason won't play on a phone. If you are having trouble playing it, try this link:
Mosiah 18:9 - Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as a witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection that ye may have eternal life
Showing posts with label Book of Mormon. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Book of Mormon. Show all posts
Tuesday, November 10, 2020
Tuesday, November 3, 2020
Friday, August 14, 2020
Some Church History Food for Thought!
A friend of mine who lives in Missouri (who I'll keep anonymous), recently went on an amazing church history tour. She had some fascinating insight and I have her permission to share. I've pretty much just pasted our conversation below for you to enjoy.
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(Friend)
Ok, some write up about impressions and things learned on the church history tour last week. Brother B. is in our bishopric and president of a historical society for early church history out here. The counsel for it is made up of people from both the LDS church and various other offshoots.
He said there were over 800 offshoots of the church, 200 of which still survive today. There's great mutual respect and a shared appreciate for the early history of the church, as each shares that. They all bring different perspectives to the table.
Hiram Page - I don't remember his history very well, except that he was the one who thought he was receiving revelations through a seer stone for the church, and a revelation was given through Joseph that only the prophet could do that, and Hiram was being deceived (it's in the D&C). He ended up leaving the church.
As Brother B. said, many RLDS descendants around today have explained to him that the feeling is their ancestors felt the church left THEM. Those that went out to Utah were called "Brigham-ites". Those that stayed felt Joseph Smith had named Joseph Smith III as successor, and did not practice plural marriage. I actually even just read that two of Joseph Smith's sons (Alex & David) went to Utah to serve missions! Alex got into quite the heated public debate with Joseph F Smith over doctrine while there (they were both in their 30's - Both born at Far West and the debate drew quite the crowd because Hiram & Joseph's sons were together again). It got heated enough that Joseph F. Smith called Emma some bad names, and Alex got quite offended and defended his mother. It ended the debate and Alex went packing home. So, for those that didn't go to Utah, there has been a very different perspective of themselves being "The Church" and those that went to Utah being the offshoot branch.
With that in mind for Hiram Page - another thing happened. The church moved on without them, evolved, received further revelation, etc, and they felt abandoned by the church. A lot of the earliest members especially felt hurt they didn't have higher positions in the church as it progressed since they had been part of it since the start. Hiram Page was one of the Eight Witnesses of the BOM, and this is some of the sense Brother B. got about him and others leaving the church.
They have tried to put up monuments for each of the BOM witnesses at their grave sites, and his was one that they couldn't find for years. Through some miraculous turn of events, they were able to find out that he died in a farming accident and was buried on his property. One of his descendants found the burial place and contacted Brother B's organization. They got a marker put up and Brother B. marked the grave with stones from his own garden wall.
Eagle Scouts came out to do their service project out there to make it nice for people to stop. And because Hiram Page died outside of the church, he did not have anyone with the priesthood to dedicate his grave. So Brother B. dedicated it with the scouts and said it was a really neat experience.
Again, I don't know much of Hiram Page's story, but as soon as we were approaching his grave, this giant rainbow appeared in the sky. It stayed the whole time we were there and left after we left. I took quite a few pictures with it in the background. And two different times, had a sacred and peaceful feeling come while there.
The impression I had was he had come back to the fold, and all was well again. There just seemed to be a happy feeling there about it all. I thought that was neat.
The second interest to note is about Far West. If standing in the parking lot, if you look across the street, Southwest direction, you'll see a grove of trees. Joseph Smith's house was just on the other side of that grove of trees.
Apparently there is an event in church history with Joseph Smith came face to face with the adversary. It was at that home in Far West. Apparently his son had a big headache or something, and Joseph came and blessed him and the headache left right away. It soon came back, was blessed away again. And a third time with the same results. This happened numerous times. Finally, Joseph inquired of the Lord as to what was happening, a vision was opened to him and he contended with the devil face to face. "He said it was his house, it belonged to him, and Joseph had no right there. Then Joseph rebuked Satan in the name of the Lord, and he departed and touched the child no more." (This event is recorded in Heber C Kimball's biography).Brother B. then talked about another interesting thing that came up there in Far West that may tie to that incident.
Years ago, David O McKay made a trip there with Alvin R Dyer of the First Presidency. While there, Alvin R Dyer extended his arm to the little small knoll on the south, just beyond the gates and said, "And right there is the spot where Cane killed Abel." 😳 President McKay confirmed what he said was true. Thus there, at Far West, were the first oaths made between Satan and man and that whole wicked works started. Satan has had great hold upon this area since. And thus, there has been quite the fight for this land.
It brought to mind something told to us after we moved here. A member of the stake had come to visit to give my husband a calling. He asked if we'd had our hardship hit yet. We were surprised, but confirmed we'd had quite a few financial issues come up since coming. He nodded and shared what had happened to him when he moved here. I'd heard others mention similar stories. He said that the Stake President said that Satan fights against any new saints moving here and does not want more of the Lord's people to come here. It generally lasts a few months for everybody when they first get here, where they go through some hardships and set backs.
It has often amazed me that of all the places the Saints went to build up Zion in the early days, they ended up with some of the roughest "lost souls" America had to offer here in western Missouri. So it was interesting to hear that there has been quite the battle for this land since the beginning of man really.
I also wondered about the temple spot being called holy Ground before it was even dedicated or set apart as a temple space. I wondered what had happened there to make it holy? I do wonder now if one of the early alters was there for Adam's sons to offer sacrifice?? I don't know. Brother B. said he had not come across info about any church leaders saying one way or the other. I had the name Noah come to mind that one time. So it could be many things.
What also stood out to me - not long after leaving there, we passed a grove of trees on the left, and Brother B. slowed his car down, called me and pointed it out, saying it's where David W Patten died.
David W Patten was the first martyr of the church. He led the rescue for some LDS men who they were told were captured by the mobs. (I believe the result was the Battle of Crooked River??) He ended up dying later from the wounds in a cabin near Far West, in the grove he pointed out to us.
What struck me about this - how interesting that the first matyr of mankind (Abel) was so near the place where the first matry of the latter-day church happened as well (David W Patten). There are some parallels there.
A friend had joined us with her family. She gasped at the info shared about where Able was killed as well, and what came to her mind was the role this area had in the United States joining the United Nations. She lives near the Independence sites right now and has explored them quite a bit. She said Harry S Truman is from the area and is the one who signed the treaty putting us into the united nations, he was instrumental in arranging it. There's a statue commemorating it out here. It just seems some of the adversary's plans are hatched out here. And it made more sense understanding the background of what happened here so long ago, and why a fight is put up to have the Saints come back and reclaim these areas for the Lord.
Last thing that stood out to me - we went to see where D&C 105 was given during Zion’s Camp. That’s not far from our home and significant to me, as that section is what gave us one of the big answers to move forward with trying to buy this home.
As we were approaching the site, we turned on to a street whose name really stood out to me - Salem! I pointed it out to my husband and explained it was a reference to the Savior, Jerusalem and Peace.
We soon saw the road Salem runs right through what was Zion’s Camp! That seemed symbolic to me.
Later in the tour, Brother B. quoted a general authority as saying in a recent conference that Zion’s camp was the second most important event in the church, after the First Vision. Reason being it united the Brethren, put them in a position where they were willing to die for one another and the cause of building Zion, and trained and pointed to the Q of 12 and future church leaders.
The next day, I was listening to Tim Ballard’s book, Pilgrim Hypothesis, and wouldn’t you know - he was talking about Salem! The East Puritan settlement. What he said seemed to parallel Zion’s camp so much to me, that I went back and listened a few times to copy down what he said:
Zion’s March & Pilgrims
Historian Perry Williams said about the Puritan settlers: “Winthrop believed their errand was not a mere scouting expedition. It was an essential maneuver in the drama of Christiandom. The Bay Company was not a battering remnant of suffering separatists thrown upon a rocky shore. It was an organized task force of Christians, executing a flank attack on the corruptions of Christiandom.
These Puritans did not flee to America. They went in order to work out the complete reformation which was not yet accomplished in England and Europe.” They often called their leader, Winthrop, Nehemias Americanus - referring to the ancient Hebrew king that led the Israelites out of Babylon back into the promised land, rebuilt Jerusalem, and inspired his people to return to their national covenant.
The Puritans named one of their first towns Salem - which has its root in the word Jerusalem and translates from the Hebrew word meaning “Peace”
They called their colonies the “New Jerusalem” and believed they were fulfilling prophecies concerning the last days. The tapped into the ancient covenants, for the enlargement and restoration of the Gospel.” (End quote)
Wow!! All of that paralleled Zion’s Camp and the importance of it so much! A latter-day Hebrew King (Joseph was later crowned King of Israel), bringing the Lord’s Covenant people out of Babylon and “restoring Jerusalem’” - both figuratively with the people and literally with the New Jerusalem - and bringing Israel back to their covenants. Just as Nehemiah did, and just as Winthrop was trying to do.
All the quotes - so much parallel!
And D&C 105 is so interesting - it talks about the New Jerusalem, and also to “lift up the ensign of Peace” - Peace - Salem! Name of the road!
The map - so here you can see the site where Zion’s camp was (in red) and how it’s just off the road, Salem. Section 105 background says Joseph received the revelation on the banks of the Fishing River - there on the right of the road Salem is the river! It’s one of the forks from the Fishing River. It’s amazing to me that a road now parallels that river called Salem, especially with all that section 105 talks about! That cannot be mere coincidence 😊
And Zion’s camp - the quote about the puritans not being a mere scouting expedition, but an essential role in the drama of Christiandom - Zion’s camp was the same. It was one of the most important events of the church - and thus Christiandom and the full restoration. Only they were literally fulfilling last day prophecy in restoring Jerusalem.
(My response):
I was fascinated with this history, when I visited Missouri last year. Most of the friends I met, belonged to the various offshoots. The couple I stayed with said that their little branch/offshoot and dwindled down now to just about 8 people. It made me wonder how they don’t see that as a sign? You look at the “Brigham-ites” 😄 and see how the Church now covers the globe and has billions of dollars, meets with diplomats, and helps the world. You see these other little offshoots who are dying off and going bankrupt. Just so interesting!
(Friend):
Yes! I thought the same thing. The RLDS Church (community of Christ) is something like 70 million dollars in debt right now, most of it the retirement or pensions owed to their employees. They have sold a lot of properties to the church, but still run them. Brother B. hadn't heard of the sales I’d heard about, but did confirm the church gave the RLDS church 10 million recently to help keep up the Kirtland temple. They also used some kind of metal that leaks for their temple in Independence and it’s in desperate need of repair. They tried to sell it to the church, but asked too much money and the church walked away. The church does own the parking lot for their temple though 😅
And yes, comparing how the churches have done financially is fascinating. Didn’t a report come out this year about the church having $100 Billion tucked away?? That floored me! They have been blessed in both gathering funds and knowing how to manage them.
(Me):
Yes, you are right. Billions. And just that our church is growing and flourishing and theirs seems to be dwindling. The lady I stayed with told me how their Community of Christ church gave the women priesthood and allowed gay marriage because they didn’t want to lose even more members. That’s when even more break offs happened. She then broke off and they started a new branch and now that’s down to about 8 people. I asked if I could go with her that Sunday because I was curious, and she told me I would be bored and unimpressed and that I should find an LDS meeting house and attend. That’s when I contacted my friend and she gave me that amazing tour of Farr West and other sites. I felt something special about Farr West. We visited the little white church across the street and they gave us a tour and told us all about their history. I had no idea about Satan having the land and Cain killing Able there. But I remember hearing that the land Adam and Eve dwelled in, spread out for miles and miles. There was just something about Farr West, I could feel it. I remember you mentioning Noah and that area.
(Friend):
Oh wow. That’s really interesting about the split off church down to 8 people! There’s a small town called Kidder where we did some co-op classes, and there’s still a split off branch of the church there too, also down to a handful of people.
One thing I also found interesting is Brother B. has an original Book of Mormon collection with rare copies. He wanted to show it to us and was very excited about his newly acquired “Whitmer-ite” Book of Mormon someone had gifted him. There were only 200 copies made.
I didn’t know what the Whitmer-ites were (though can guess as many of the Whitmers left the church). But he told us that under the direction of President Frederick M Smith of the RLDS, they did a re-translation of the Book of Mormon! They have in fact done so many re-translations at this point, that their BOM ended up 200 pages longer than ours. It starts with the same first verse, but then goes off from there!
The Whitmer-ite Book of Mormon was a re-translation of the RLDS church’s original re-translation 😜. Apparently a few of the off shoot churches did that! So interesting!
I do remember touring the building while doing my semester in Nauvoo at BYU. They played beautiful organ music in the center, and served coffee in the lobby. I remember there being artwork everywhere - but it was of such dark and grotesque things. Focusing on starving children and wickedness around the world. Causes their charities work with. But, it left such a cold, dark feeling to look at. It felt like such a contrast to me from our temples - where the artwork inspires hope, faith, and feelings of the Spirit. They concentrate on the beauty of an area, history, moments of faith and of course on Christ.
The other thing they had there were a lot of pictures of women giving priesthood blessings, and “Q of the 12” that were women. I could see members splitting off as they adopted philosophies of the world. The United Methodist church has done the same recently, and factions are forming and starting to split their church as well over the same issues.
The other thing I remember is the tour we were given by a member of the RLDS church. They kept referring to Joseph Smith going to the groves or a sacred experience, but wouldn’t say what it was. I raised my hand and asked what they thought happened in the Sacred Grove. He said, “Well, everyone has their different opinion about what he saw. There’s no official stance on it.” 😳
He also referred to Joseph Smith as writing the Book of Mormon. I again asked if he meant “translated” the Book of Mormon, and he again said, “Well, everyone has their own opinion about that as well. It’s up to members if they want to use it as scripture or not.” Again 😳
I wondered how people could follow church leaders that had no real stances on anything, especially fundamental founding principles of a church. I guess if the BOM has been added to, taken away from and changed so many times by their leaders, it would lead to people no longer feeling the book was inspired.
The other thing that stood out to me was finding out how their “General Conferences” are run. I asked about that, and he described the great debates that would happen with various parties within the church yelling at each other over how to run the church and next steps to take. He described it as very exciting and similar to a law-making council in government, only more lively. My jaw just dropped. I know General conferences in Nauvoo were filled with inspiring talks from the leaders, not meetings of debate. Where did they get that from?
In conclusion, our semester director (Brother Larry Dahl is you know him from publications, he was the leading historian for the church at the time). He let us see and explore it all, then gathered us on the temple grounds. I remember him pointing back to the RLDS temple and said, “They are wonderful people doing much good in the world, and it’s a beautiful building. But they have no idea what to do with it and what a temple is for. They do not have the saving ordinances a temple is built for.” That has stayed with me.
I’m so glad that you were able to take that tour with your friend! What a kind thing to take you around to the various sacred sites.
When he told us and showed us the spot where Cain killed Abel, I felt tingles up and down and a strong spirit of confirmation. Talking with my friend after and she did too! It was a really interesting experience.
Looking at the scriptures surrounding that event, it has made me wonder if the Abel being martyred there may have made it holy ground as well. Much as we travel to the place where Joseph and Hyrum were martyred and there is a feeling of sacredness for the sacrifice given there. Perhaps it is the same with Abel’s place of martyrdom.
There are two different scriptures that note about his blood crying from the ground, and the earth receiving his blood.
Also another interesting side note - I’ve always wondered if the Nephites were in this area and if it’s spoken of in the BOM. I still haven’t found any identification of this area being mentioned (though 2 hours east of here was identified as the City Manti in BOM by Joseph Smith). I do remember he also identified a “Nephite alter” that was at Adam-Ondi-Ahman when the saints first got there.
But on the tour I learned of other evidence they were here. On the tour, Brother B. talked about Wayne May giving a 3 hour lecture out there, and then taking Brother B. around to various archaeological sites out here. He took him to a mound just south of Far West and identified it as from the final days of the Nephites, around battle Cumorah time period. He said he’s seen enough of the mounds to recognize what time period the mounds are from, and this one marched that time period. I thought that was pretty interesting! Brother B. showed me where it is on a map and which road to take to go and walk on it and explore it, so I am looking forward to doing that.
(Me):
I think if I remember correctly, the RLDS believed in handing down the mantle from father to son. Eventually someone only had daughters and maybe that’s when they decided to allow women to have the priesthood. I had heard that before (they stopped doing a father to son mantle, and the church presidents were no longer from the Smith family).
(Friend):
I watched a movie the other day made by the descendants of Joseph & Emma. It was about what happened to Emma after the martyrdom, and told both perspectives - the perspective the LDS church has and the RLDS church. It was fascinating.
Something I noticed is that experienced everyone had where they saw Brigham take on the mantle of Joseph Smith, and felt confirmation from the Spirit that he was the new prophet - Emma skipped that meeting. She didn’t experience seeing or feeling that. And she already butted heads with Brigham quite a bit.
The other person I know that skipped the meeting was Lyman White. He left the church as well and took a branch of saints down to Texas’s. Joseph had sent him years earlier to scout it out as a possible place for the saints, so Lyman was convinced that’s where Joseph wanted the Saints to go. The place he took his off-shoot branch was in my stake in Texas. A few generations later, the branch rejoined the church and their descendants were in my stake. So I grew up seeing plays done and hearing stories about their experience. The institute director always noted that if Lyman had been at that meeting like he was supposed to be, he would have been able to receive confirmation like everyone else that Brigham was the new prophet. He wasn’t there, and he didn’t receive it. So, that came to mind seeing Emma chose not to go as well.
One thing the RLDS church believes is that Joseph gave his oldest son a blessing saying he would be the successor of the church. This came up in the movie as well.
Funny enough, a month or two ago, a President Hinckley talk came up on YouTube that I felt to watch. It felt random at the time, but addresses this subject directly, and that this was NOT the case. If this is a topic being covered in any future videos Lindsey, this would be a good talk to review. The church obtained the document and President Hinckley did a really good job addressing what was actually said and meant by the Prophet Joseph Smith.
While watching the movie, I still could not understand the choices Emma made to stay behind. And continually, she chose to not do what Brigham asked her to (various legal matters with the properties of the church under Joseph’s name - she ignored counsel and did her own thing instead, which ended up meaning most property was lost to the state, and then she refused to give the translation of the Bible over when asked, which is why the RLDS church owns it today, and there were some other papers of Joseph’s she wouldn’t give over either. She really butted heads with Brigham (A LOT, lol).
Anyway, so I’m watching this, still struggling to understand her view point to not go West. She said she prayed about it and didn’t get a confirmation to go or to stay, so she stayed. She said she was tired of running (though staying behind meant she and the children had to flee and hide many times because the mobs wanted to kill Joseph’s whole family. It wasn’t until she married Bidemon that she really finally has security and rest from the mobs).
So, I’m watching this, and the drama many in the Smith Family had of thinking they were supposed to be in charge of the church (Joseph’s Brother, William, also caused a lot of drama on this subject), I had the thought that maybe they stayed behind to help prevent that confusion from going to Utah. Once in Utah, there was never a question if Joseph’s offspring should be the next prophet or someone else. All of that ended when they left Nauvoo. So, maybe the Lord felt it best to keep their family behind and bring them back into the fold a few generations later? Just a thought that came.
More from the church history tour:
He also took us over to the south just a bit, halfway between the temple lot and a line of trees where the Missouri armies camped. The extermination order had been in place, Hahn’s Mill massacre had already happened, and two thousand Missouri militia had approached and camped just outside of Far West. They had enough to wipe it out completely, as they had Haun’s Mill. The saints were terrified. Joseph and Hyrum and a few others wanted to talk it out on middle ground, and their safety was assured to just go talk a truce.
But, when Joseph got to the middle ground area, they immediately arrested him, shoved him into the muddy ground and said they would kill him in the morning.
The next morning, Alexander Doniphan was ordered to kill Joseph for treason, and he refused. He told the higher ranking man that it was wrong and that if he had Joseph Smith killed, he’d hold him responsible for murder before a court, or court marshaled or whatever.
It saved Joseph’s life that day. Instead, he was transferred to Richmond (a town we’ve been to many times to get some of our chicks) . Thats where he had that moment where he stood up in chains and rebuked the guards for all the terrible things they were saying.
Then the next day he was transferred to Liberty Jail and we know that story. 
Alexander Doniphan became Joseph’s lawyer for the next 5 months while in Liberty Jail. You can see more details about all that in that movie I recommended, Out of Liberty.
Joseph and Emma named their son that was born in Far West after him - Alexander Hale Smith. In his 30’s, Alex made a trip to Utah with brother David to serve a mission and try and rescue some of the “Brigham-ites”. It didn’t go well.
Spot where they tried to kill Joseph. I didn’t notice until sharing this with my mom today - note the day they tried to kill him. October 31st!!
This was maybe a 100 yards from the far west temple site. Isn’t it interesting that right near the location where the first murder happened, Satan tried to arrange the martyrdom of Joseph Smith to happen as well - on oct 31st of all days. Only confirms to me once again that it is not a day to celebrate his kingdom.
(Me):
That is crazy about October 31st and his almost killing. It's truly a day of blood sacrifice. Makes me wonder if it was around the same date/season for Cain and Able? I know their calendar was not the same but there has to be a reason why Satan originally chose that date. Maybe it honors that first blood sacrifice and he has required it every year since. I now on the Satanic holy day website October 31st shows it's a day recognized each year by blood sacrifice.
(Friend):
Lindsey, I had the EXACT same thought about the date for the Cain/Able murder! I didn't mention it because I thought I might be jumping to conclusions. But I think you've summed it up nicely. Just as Rome has required the blood of saints throughout the ages to fuel their power and the strengthen the devil's kingdom, it seemed to me that he similarly wanted blood sacrifice of holy men on these holy lands to give him more power as well. It was a thought I had, which seems confirmed by the points you are bringing up. It makes Alexander Doniphan's role in standing up to those men even more amazing. There's a lot of things named after him out here. Apparently he went on to do other noble and heroic things during the Civil War as well and is well known in this area for those acts.
Another date that stood out to me - did you know the date Joseph and the men left Liberty Jail was April 6th?? That clearly would have been symbolic to them and a message to them that the Lord knew their plight and had a plan. It also makes me think there is quite a bit of significance to the Oct 31st date of the start of the ordeal if such a big date was when the left the jail.
So, I went to see the date John Pratt has assigned to Abel’s death. He thinks the equivalent of our 6 April 3873. But....that doesn’t seem to fit the pattern. April 6 is a day of birth and redemption. Not a day of power for the adversary.
I tried plugging into his calculator to see that same year, but Oct 31, 3873. That was a day called “4 skull” on whatever ancient calendar he was referring to (I think Mayan). It notes it was a day that represented death, and a day a business closed its doors. In Hebrew, that date corresponds to 1 Tebeth, The Winter Solstice “when the sun dies and the day is shortest in length”. If that is the date Able died, it does seem it would be very symbolic, to die on the longest day of darkness, a day that represented death on Other cultures calendars after that.
That’s interesting, because Joseph Smith was born the day after the Winter Solstice of 1805, in the morning hours. He was literally born as the new dawn broke after the longest day of darkness of the year. It was hugely symbolic of the light he would return to the earth after the longest darkness it had experienced.
As a side note, I think you know John Pratt left the church a few years ago, following after Denver Snuffer’s movement. Which has been a shame because his past 20 years of articles before that has some neat insights on significant dates for sacred events and better understanding constellations relating to Israel (instead of Roman gods). He now publishes articles about why he likes these other off-shoot groups. Which means I haven’t been to his site in forever. The old articles have good info though and I wanted to find the calendar calculator. It basically compares our modern dates to a bunch of ancient calendars to give the equivalent.
While looking up the date calendar, I saw an article he published recently about his latest adventures and read it. Apparently there is a man in Brazil who claims to be the prophet Joseph Smith reincarnated and translating sealed portions of the BOM! You can’t make this stuff up you guys! I’d heard reference to the man claiming to have the BOM down there a few years back, but not the reincarnated part. John Pratt went down to see the man and speak at his conference on multiple mortalities because the man said his congregation needed to understand that “doctrine” for the “restoration of the church he was leading to continue”. (Insert giant eye-roll here. Of course he needs them to believe that to believe his claims). John Pratt was baptized into the man’s church while down there. They call themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and say they are different because they don’t hyphenate the Latter-Day part, just like Joseph originally did not do. (I wonder if they realize Joseph missed a lot of punctuation in his writings, not purposefully, but because he only had up to a third grade education?? Lol) They claim the hyphen was added by Brigham Young who didn’t have the authority to do so. I was amazed to see he was referring to the early history in this area and the “Brigham-ites” going off to settle an off-shoot group of the church in Utah! That’s amazing that belief held by original off shoot groups are being perpetuated in modern off-shoot groups around the world! Once again, how do you not compare the fruits of the various groups and not clearly see which church still held the authority??
He also has articles posted showing how these modern day translated scriptures he’s reading disprove the heartland model Wayne May proposed 🤦🏼♀️. Well, that’s another witness to take a look at the Heartland model for the BOM if these modern day off-shoot groups are speaking out against it, ha!
I wonder if these off-shoot groups think they have the good “fruits” because they have all these strange “gifts” of rolling around laughing or clicking in tongues for an hour?? Counterfeit gifts. I don’t understand how thrashing around or uncontrollable laughter is seen as a gift? So strange.
Saturday, June 6, 2020
Ancient Israelites in North America - A Look at DNA!
My friends and I often have conversations about very intriguing topics. This most recent one was too good not to share.
We had been talking about our love for the "Hidden in the Heartland" series that you can now watch in Amazon prime. They are short episodes that show a great amount of evidence and archeological finds here in North America that seem to confirm that the Book of Mormon took place in the Heartland.
The question of a friend came up;
"I'm wondering if you have you heard where the natives from Mexico, south and Central America may be from? Wasn’t Lehi from Manasseh? I had a close friend who was from Colombia and he was from the tribe of Manasseh.
Do you think that are still part of Lehis people?"
Our friend Beth responded;
"Yes the DNA testing done shows the Mesoamerican tribes are linked more to Asian peoples. The North American tribes, mainly of the NE United States, carry a maternal haplogroup only found in a few other rare places in the world - one of those being Israel, and more specifically Nazareth. I just learned that about a month ago that specifically it's linked to Nazareth.
I have a fascinating book that explores the phenotypes (outer genetic characteristics) of the North American natives and Mesoamerica natives compared to different groups of people in the world. I’ll see if I can find it and send pictures. Seeing the pictures of side by side comparisons, it was very clear who the ancestors of both groups were, even without the DNA evidence to back it up.
Also, if you compare a Hindu temple from India with the Mesoamerica temples, they are the same.
Jewish temples did not have stairs. There’s a Mosaic law about it. One of the rabbi’s told that to either Rod or Wayne while on a tour of Jerusalem. He said staired temples were for the gentiles. The Hebrews had ramps so they could gradually ascend up to the temple without flashing people in the crowd from underneath. It was a way to keep modesty.
The temples in Mesoamerica all have stairs. The Hopewell temples all had ramps! Wayne has a whole magazine dedicated to the parallels between the Hindus and the Aztecs. I’ll see if I can find that too.
So, we know some things that I think will help answer your question about Lehi’s seed:
1) there were already groups here when Lehi arrived. The Nephites went north, but the Lamanites joined with and mixed with some of the groups already here. We can pick this up from clues in the scriptures - their skin turned darker within a generation and they become way more numerous than the nephites very quickly too.
2) The BOM ends with the restrictions of the Nephite people in 400 AD. It was another 1000 years before Columbus came and all the conquistadors of South America. A LOT of history happened in that time.
From what I’ve studied and come across, there were multiple times of groups conquering each other and the Lamanite bloodlines being mixed into the non-Lehi descendant bloodlines that were already in South America.
For example, I’ve mentioned the period of 400 years when the “snake people” of Mexico (so either Mayans or Aztecs, can’t remember which) came up to the Georgia area, made the natives their slaves (so made the Lamanite descendants slaves), ruled over them, mixed with them, adopted some of their traditions and stories, and then eventually went back down to Mexico. During this time, they forced their slaves to recreate some of their temples they left behind. There wasn’t all the rock, so it was built of dirt. Let me see if I can find a picture of it for you. It’s still there today for tours and everything.
The chief of that tribe that had been made slaves told this part of their history to Wayne May while he toured it.
It’s called the Etowah Indian Mounds. It’s very different looking from the Hopewell mounds left behind. This clearly had a link to the ancient tribes of Mexico. So, right there you have one case of the Lamanite bloodlines mixing in with the people of Mexico. They would have taken back some of the traditions and stories the Lamanites had.
Another example is I believe the Inca or another Peruvian group. I wish I remembered that one better. Either they came north or northern people’s went south. But there was a lot of mixing in the 1,100 years after the Nephites were destroyed!
So, yes, I really do believe the native peoples of South America are descendants of Lehi and probably why they join the church in higher numbers than other places. They are helping fulfill the promise made to Enos.
The other thing to remember is that Christ visited more than just the Book of Mormon people. He told them he had other sheep to visit as well. The book, "He Walked the Americas", explores the stories different native groups have passed down of the white bearded prophet that visited their people. I’ve read through most of those accounts and see a common theme of him teaching peace, loving one another, and higher farming technologies. For instance, it was the great white bearded prophet that taught Squanto’s people how to put a fish under their corn before planting. Squanto taught it to William Bradford, and it ended up saving the lives of the Pilgrims.
So yes, I do also believe he visited the Aztec and Mayan people of Mexico as well! I don’t believe it’s what our Book of Mormon account is, but there seems to be much of the doctrine he would have taught left behind and shown on their temple walls as well. They also have their traditions of him coming to visit.
Maternal haplogroup is what they call a special marker that is passed from mother to daughter. It’s almost like a fingerprint identification that gets passed on in our genes. So you each carry the one that came from your mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother, etc, back through time.
There is a book called “The 7 daughters of Eve” that traces the 7 ancient women who each had a genetic mutation or variant which created their own unique haplogroup. Those had branches and mutations as well until we have many maternal haplogroups today.
So above, they are showing the different groups of Maternal haplogroups that are found in the Americas among native women.
If you read through it, it explains how haplogroup X is found in Israelite women and NE America’s, but not Mesoamerica women.
The Haplogroups A, B, C, & D are all found in Mesoamerica, and they are all Asian.
I think the pictures comparing faces of women from Asia compared to Mayan and Aztec women is fascinating. Same with a Galilean woman compared to North American Indian woman.
I also ended up copying that whole chapter above because they delve a bit into how Israelite genetics shows up in the British Isles!
In most of the rest of the book, he makes comparisons between Semitic vs Asiatic phenotypes...or in other words, the physical facial differences between Israeli & middle eastern groups and Asian groups. Asian groups tend to have flatter foreheads and noses whole semeric groups have rounder foreheads and prominent noses. I think there’s a difference with the jaw too, but can’t remember what. So with that in mind, he looks at the profiles of various figures...
The first group of pages I posted above also ended up going into Ephraim. This is the haplogroup and DNA evidence that shows the tribe of Ephraim ended up in the British isles.
These three pictures are exploring how the modern descendants of these groups still match up with ancient carvings of their ancestors.
This compares a Mayan woman with an ancestral carving with a Filipino man.
Mayan statue with a Siberian man.
This shows links between Mayan statues and Chinese statues. Even the dress and necklaces.
Now Jewish compared with Mayan and Northern American profiles.
These three pictures show how even the custom of dress and jewelry was similar to Semitic peoples. Braided hair as well, meaning the dress, hair, hat and jewelry customs of North American Indians are similar to Semitic tribes in the Middle East.
And these compare ancient and modern Jews with northern American Indian people.
Then he goes through and compares famous leaders with Semitic peoples. This page above has a historical quote from someone that heard Lincoln say he supposed he was Hebrew in origin, even though his ancestral lines with British and Dutch.
And then here it compares Joseph Smith’s family with Jewish faces as well. It amazed me the comparison of his son to a Samaritan priest - they look like twins! Then Joseph’s uncle, nephew and his own death mask.
So yes - there is quite a bit of evidence out there linking the North American Indian tribes to Israel, while the complete opposite for linking MesoAmerican tribes to them.
The man that wrote this book above is not associated with the FIRM foundation. I know he likes Wayne May’s research, but this was his own. The book was mainly focused around exploring a mummy from Egypt he thought might be Joseph of Egypt based on phenotype profile and other clues. I’ve only seen him at a conference one time. He has done this research independently and reached the same conclusion Wayne is finding with the artifact evidence.
Another interesting thing that came to mind about this topic. The MicMac Indians of NE US and Canada area. Their script and customs match up with two things - the ancient script of an Irish people, and the script copied down from the gold plates to show the professor. They all match up.
Meaning, the Micmac people (who have many Jewish customs, including the mosaic marriage laws for widows, hair, hats, etc), have links to the BOM peoples as well as a group in Ireland. Which is another evidence showing up that some Nephites ended up in Europe!
Book of Mormon above showed to the professor.
Compared with Micmac Indian script (of Nova Scotia).
And then someone not of our faith compared it to this Irish script and tried to use that to prove the BOM as made up. The Stoddards heard it in a presentation at a homeschool conference. They looked into it and saw the Ancient Irish script had not been published in a time that Joseph Smith would have seen it, and he could not have used it to “make up” the BOM script above.
In comparison - here is Mayan script. It’s not even close.
Lindsey, I remember you talking about finding a connection between the Chichen Itza work and it being with the Cherokee as well on your trip to Mexico. I have wondered if that connection and the many parallels you saw between the two came from the time when the Mayan came up and invaded Georgia for 400 years. The Cherokee were very close to that area being in western North Carolina and I’m sure the two cultures mixed quite a bit. Enough to have the similar words and stories you found between the two on your vacation.
There’s info out there on this topic as well if wanting to search it further.
My son brought this to me tonight and I thought it was pretty neat! Goes back to this Heartland model topic (and tornadoes! Another theme we’ve talked about! 😅) Note that this “shafts in the whirlwind” phenomenon is something that occurs here in the Heartland.
This goes on to explore that topic further. Note how Mesoamerica doesn’t even have the right conditions for whirlwinds! The hearland of America’s does."
The question came up as to why the European Christians of the Bible Belt (who were among the many groups that came to America seeking religious freedom), have had a strong stance against the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon.
I had replied;
"I’ve pondered this before about the Bible Belt. I remember when we visited Tennessee a few years ago and we learned from a Dolly Parton show, all about her ancestors from the Smokey Mountains. They all came from Scotland. I had no idea at the time and it intrigued me. I remember several years ago a German family came to America seeking refuge because they were about to be arrested because the parents were trying to homeschool and that’s against the law in Germany. They were a Christian family with 7 kids (I think). So they felt led to Tennessee. They came for refuge in the Smokey Mountains. I can’t remember what happened to them but I think I heard the German government summoned them back and they were forced out of the U.S. anyways it had me again pondering about the settlers of that area. So interesting about why one group was so resistant?"
Later Beth said;
"A distant cousin sent me this book in the mail today. It’s quite thick, about 900 pages, and was more than I wanted to pay on Amazon. She saw me talking in a group about groups of people that came to America and thought I would enjoy this book. She had the thought to send it to me, and so gifted it! It’s been so interesting so far!
It details the 4 different British groups that came to America and the differences between them. Which parts of England and explores the differences in dialect, religious views and practices, child naming and reading approaches, and general views on law and morals. It’s pretty fascinating! But neat she thought to even send it to me as this has been a topic of interest for a while and she had no idea. This is not even what I was talking about in the post she read.
These are the four groups it explores. What really gets me is she wrote and said she had the thought to send this to me on the day we were all wondering why there was such a difference between New England descendants that joined the church and other groups that ended up in the south and didn’t join the church. This book basically traces those groups histories and early time in America!
The first group discussed in this book is the New Englanders, the second group is the Jamestown group, third is the Quakers of Pennsylvania, and 4th is the Scotts to the Appalachia and south! Exact groups we had been talking about!"
I replied;
"I have always been fascinated with facial genetics and the study of where certain facial features originate. I once spent an entire day (several years ago) reading about it. I’ve not been able to find that website since but it was old research and photos from the 40’s-50’s of people all over the world. I remember I found an image of a woman who I felt looked just like me! I love history and I love learning about people and their origins."
Some other parts of our long conversation:
Beth said,
"Lehi landed in the Florida panhandle area. There’s a ton of evidence for it I can go into more detail with if you want. But the Lamanites stayed there and Nephi and his people went North until they got to northern Georgia and a Tennessee area. about the Chattanooga area of Tennessee is where they think the temple was built at a big flat overlook that is still considered sacred by native Americans. Basically that area was the land of Nephi. Lots of copper mines in that area.
Then later they went west and found the land of Zarahemla. Wayne May found evidence of the temple being right across from Nauvoo. Nauvoo was a Hopewell Indian burial ground. Those are believed to be Nephites. So basically, Joseph, Hyrum and Emma are buried literally in a Nephite Burial ground. Which is amazing.
The area that Wayne found the ancient temple evidence is in the place the Lord told JOseph Smith to name Zarahemla.
But it all goes with the theme we’ve talked about with the British lands - the Lord uses patterns of bringing his people to sacred areas over and over. Cumorah and the sacred grove, Kirtland and Bountiful, Nauvoo and Zarahemla, Jackson county and the Garden of Eden, Adam Ondi Ahman and the early saints, and Far West and what I think was a place that had to do with Noah.
The Mulekites and Jaradites entered in by way of the northern areas - st Lawrence canal and Great Lakes. They settled that Canada and northern Michigan area and then eventually came down to the Nauvoo area.
Wayne Maye does a whole lecture on how he has a theory that anytime you get an antichrist or trouble maker in the Nephites, it’s usually a Mulekite. They are usually noted to be very large in stature (Jaradites were the Adena - giants 9 feet tall), and they usually had some wicked Jaradite practices or philosophies. It was really interesting theory and now that he’s pointed it out, I see the pattern all the time when reading the BOM.
Real quick, from what I’ve studied, the Nephites and Lamanites did spread out a bit. I remember reading in Ether and there is a part where a king and his sons had to go East and hide for a while because someone had taken over the kingdom. Knowing the artifacts show the Adena (that’s the name of the native people that match up with the Jaradite timeline) - knowing where Adena settlements and burial sites are concentrated (Michigan and Ohio), I was looking at the map for which part of the coast they would have gone to. And then Wayne maye shared about some houses in the ground that are kind of like caves they found some where, that date to the Adena people. Anyway, always made me wonder if that’s where they hid out for a number of years.
They believe the Cherokees are the Lamanites that made an oath with Moroni to no longer fight with the Nephites and went eastward. And the Lamanite converts of Ammon were given land around St Louis area. Anyway, it is really fun to study up on.
From what I’ve seen, the pilgrims felt part of Israel. They felt they were modern day Israel. They followed the patterns of covenant keeping people’s....which means their ancestors probably were as well (Covenant Keepers). The Jamestown crew was more out for land, adventure, fortune, and business. It was a place for the children of wealthy nobleman to go and make their fortune, because they weren’t the oldest son inheriting their father’s fortune back in England. Also a lot of criminals or people who had debts were sent there. Their death rate was horrific - 2 of every 3 people died their first year in Jamestown during the first decade or so it was getting going. So 2/3 of the people died. For the pilgrims, 1/2 died the first winter. So...they actually survived better somehow.
Anyway, people both coming out of England, but such different focuses! I remember reading that when the Jamestown church burned or was knocked down somehow, they just didn’t even rebuild it for years. They had other priorities.
I know that my ancestors that come from that area went across the bay and settled in the Delmarva peninsula. The state of Virginia said they had to be Church of England. So my ancestors left with many others, and crossed the state lines into Delaware. Freedom of religion was important to them.
But the group you see join the early church in droves are the descendants of the pilgrims. I think they definitely had royal bloodlines.
Maybe the Jamestown group did too, but it was like the Israelites that were a tad slower at being valiant centuries ago??? Who knows. But history does tend to point to there being a difference somehow.
Many of the tribes that are thought to be Nephite descendants are found in the NE region with the “Algonquin” tribes. Once you get toward the South, you run into tribes that have more Lamanite stories in their traditional stories.
The Indians that helped both groups (pilgrims and Jamestown) were Algonquin. Which is interesting.
My ancestor at Jamestown was adopted by Chief Powhatan (Pocahontas’ dad) for a number of years so he could learn their language. He took a native girl to wife and had a child (also my ancestor).
So because of that connection to the Algonquin tribes, when I come across their chiefs and kings in the record books, I actually get to submit them for temple work! I think that is the coolest thing. Many of their tribes are wiped out by now, so there are no other descendants doing it. I hope that it is somehow helping Nephite descendants on the other side. On my dad’s side is Choctaw Indian from the South...lamanite. Which again, is cool to see those family names be done as well.
I have a book from a lecture I went to where a guy studied the different tribes and noticed a distinct pattern between tribes that were Nephite descendants and tribes that were Lamanite descendants. He also goes through and shows how all these customs the native Americans had parallel ancient Hebrew customs.
The native people of Mesoamerica march up DNA wise to Asians, and their architecture mimics the Hindu temples of India. I do believe Christ visited them as well. But I don’t believe it was the visit we read about in 3 Nephi.
Also, it was either the Mayan or Aztec that came up to the Georgia area and for about 400 years made the Lamanite people there slaves. They eventually went back to Mexico with many inter marriages. My personal thought is they would have taken many of the stories of Christ back down with them when that happened.
I could go on about all this for a while 😅 It really is exciting to think about it all happening here! There’s also the research showing evidence Nephites ended up in Europe. I remember the impression I had one day that when William Bradford met Squanto, it was the bringing back together of Nephite and Lamanite bloodlines. I was surprised to hear Lindsey say the same, and they also said the same in the Stoddard’s documentary of Nephites in Europe.
So...that may very well tie in to the Pilgrim bloodlines as well, If they had Nephite ancestry!
I remember reading an article last year about this abandoned City in England they discovered. As I read how it was set up for defense, I was amazed at how much it paralleled Moroni’s own strategy for defending cities. It made me wonder if Nephites ended up back in England somehow. After wondering that, the Stoddard’s came out with their research showing that yes, there is tons of evidence for that!
I feel like it gives a different perspective when you read the BOM and they talk about talking to their descendants and writing this book for their descendants...and you realize that literally means most of us as a people today in America! And other places throughout it the world. Prophets have confirmed Nephites ended up in Both Japan and New Zealand. The Stoddard’s found evidence for England, Netherlands, & Germany. It seems their bloodlines are mixed in throughout the world. The BOM really is for everyone."
I replied;
"I saw this article today and thought it was interesting." The article shows the map below of the native nations here in America.
Beth said;
"Saw this map today of the 11 different groups of settlers in the US" She compared it side by side to the native nations map.
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